Wayne,

At the great risk of an unknown sedan showing up in my driveway, with men in dark suits coming to get me, I couldn't agree with you more.

I don't think he could stay on beat.

I think he needed those big bands behind him to drown out his voice.

I think he took some good tunes and ruined them with his formula (with the big bands).

I don't think he could swing at all.                   

                     Quite a statement Waynelee.  Anything in particular bring this on?  Did ya hear one too many spoutings on the wonders of Ol' Blue Eyes?  Maybe a reviewer tearing apart some other vocalist and lamenting the bygone days of the exalted leader of the Rat Pack?

I was never a huge Sintra fan either.  I like some of his material, but I never thought he was the second coming.  I actually enjoy his films more than his music.

There's really no accounting for what makes the public make one artist into an icon while others of equal (and perhaps greater) talent just fall by the wayside or achieve moderate success and recognition.  In the same vein, the whole Benny Goodman "King of Swing" thing has always bothered me too.  Goodman was a great clarinet player for sure and a shrewd bandleader.  However he has also been quoted as saying "Sideman are a dime a dozen" and he was not beyond taking credit for compositions not written by him.  If not for "sideman" such as Lionel Hampton, Charlie Christian and Gene Krupa (not to mention the arrangements of Fletcher Henderson), Goodman may have just wound up being a sideman himself.  Let's not forget that "Sing, Sing, Sing" was written by Louis Prima, NOT Goodman, and Krupa's drums make that tune, not Benny's clarinet.  In my book, Basie was and always will be the King of Swing.

I posted a similar topic on John Coltrane on a Jazz forum a few years back.  I didn't go as far to say that I thought he "sucked", but I did say that I didn't care for his playing and couldn't understand why he has become the acknowledged symbol of Jazz.  You can imagine the reponses I got.                   

                     Once anyone who has an acknowledged genius becomes a focal point for uncritical adulation, there's apt to be a backlash.

I doubt, though, that Goodman would have spent the remainder of his days after 1933 as a sideman. He was just too talented, too driven, too good an organizer, and had too great a passion for the swing idiom to sit idly by while the state of dance music in America remained in a state of flux. To his eternal credit, he believed that instrumentalists should be the musical stars. And if he didn't have the guts to hire men like Lionel Hampton and Teddy Wilson as early as 1936, and feature them to the public on the basis of their astounding merit, the asinine backwardness of racial prejudice might have cast a shadow over the American musical scene for another decade or two. Goodman set a brave example; and had he not crystallized and polished what other bandleaders had done earlier--and with little success--American music would have been much poorer.

But again, the point is this: too much adulation is a bad thing.                   

Once anyone who has an acknowledged genius becomes a focal point for uncritical adulation, there's apt to be a backlash.

                     Marlowe, you came on after waynelee got married.  He hasn't been on much until just recently since then.  This is just his way, he can't be trained, but he really isn't trying to offend.  He just likes to stir the pot every once in awhile or else this bunch gets too academic and stuffy.  Sure, he could be more diplomatic, but, hey, he just calls it like he sees it. 

waynelee, I wonder what kind of shoes sinatra preferred? :twisted:                   

                     You guys remind me of the characters in Woody Allen's Manhattan. In that film, two characters had the so-called "Academy of the Overrated." They slammed artists that are almost universally accepted to be among the finest:  Gustav Mahler, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Walt Whitman and Vincent Van Gogh, to name a few.   

Marlowe                   

                     In every decade there is somebody (or a group of somebodys) who define their generation. Style, pizzaze, the look, the walk, the talk, they get ALL the broads, ect...  In the forties, Sinatra, fifties, Elvis, sixties, the Beatles, on and on. Theres always somebody whos going to come out and say, THEY SUCK!!! The fact of the matter is, none of this elite group suck. They are the pop culture icons that change the world. They would not get to be where
they were if they were not the very best that there is. That is a fact Sam. You may not care for their musical stylings personally, but speaking of Sinatra no one can deny, he was a supurb song stylist. If he wasn't, he would have burnt out (like so many other talented singers) in the late 40's when the bands fell apart. He wasn't just lucky, he knew how to tell a story musically.  Every lounge singer in the world kneels down at his alter, and with good reason. If it wasn't for the Sinatra of the 50's and 60's, they wouldn't have a gig man! People don't imitate your every geature by the thousands cause you suck, it's because he's the guy who laid the groundwork for everyone. I couldn't care less what kind of jerk he was on a personal level, to me he is the absolute KING of the  lounge crooners and he will never be topped in his field by anyone, ever, no matter what. Many have tried, none have succeded. That is not an opinion. That is a fact, like it or not.                   

                     aw come on! the man sucked big time! the only thing that was wonderous about him is the fact that the man lived for so long putting out sucky album after sucky album! as for him being a street thug! you gotta be jokin guy! he was a punk the paid other folks to lay down a beatin he himself couldn't do. in my neck of the woods that's a coward. not a thug.  sammy's voice was more powerful and better soundin any day. if the times weren't like they were or if sammy was white, he would have blown that punk out of the water.  i can't believe that to this day folks still get caught up in that ridculous rat pack crap! yeah "let's worship some alcoholic, wife cheatin dogs"! aren't they so cool?"                   

...there are wonderfully talented people that get no recognition in their lifetimes.

                     "When we started integrating groups of people, we all started sharing culture and music. That's how it happened, we learned from eachother. Any outfit that had a new sound, you could tell there were white cats and black cats playing together,"(Bo Diddley)

"That's me, I didn't copy nobody, I was the first - me and Chuck. Little Richard says he's the first rock and roller, but he came three years after me. They say Elvis started rock and roll, but he was two years after me. Elvis was good, damn good, but the only thing that upsets me is when they say he's the first. I'm still crazy about him and he did a lot of great things, but he didn't start rock and roll."(Bo Diddley)                   

                     Hey Gman,
I know you were writing about influence and you got your point across. It's just that hard work getting one to the top and Elvis didn't quite fit to me. As for Bill Haley, his album "Rock Around the Clock" didn't come out until May 14, 1955. Coincidentally, that same year Bo Diddley came out with "Bo Diddley/ I'm a Man" on 'May 4th'. As for my comment on the 'black man's music', that's just part of my humor. You see, it was the white man who owned the record labels at the time and of course he wasn't about to sign a black man. Don't take it too seriously Gman.                    

                     Good thread.  Lots of opinions are gonna fly.  Let's get certain things  straight though.

Sorry to say but Sinatra was not a genius (nor was Elvis for that matter).  Neither of them invented or really even pioneered the genres in which they successful, and neither of them EVER wrote a single original tune.  Certainly, they both were talented, individual stylists - but neither of them were the pinnacle of what they did...they were just the most POPULAR.   And what exactly does that mean?  Absolutely nothing.  Look how many records people like Kenny G  and Clint Black have sold.  So by the same reasoning, does that make them the most talented in their fields?  Er, hardly.  There's just no accounting for the public's tastes.  Besides that, let's face it - most of the public is just along for the ride when it comes to pop culture.  Their tastes are decided FOR them by the media, advertising and what they are told is "hip".

Billie Holiday was singing behind the beat long before ol' Frankie came along and there were plenty of smooth styled vocalists during the 40's and 50's that were every bit as good as (or even better than) Sinatra.  In my opinion he wasn't half the singer that Johnny Hartman or Jimmy Scott or Joe Williams were.  And many of his most popular tunes got a hefty pat on the rear end by the bands of Nelson Riddle,  Count Basie and others.  Sinatra did not arrange his own songs.

Nope - sorry - it just doesn't wash for me.  Same thing with Elvis.  Half of what made those Sun records sessions so good were...

A.  His band. Scotty Moore & co. really made those tunes jump.  No other band at the time was really blending Country, Blues and R & B like those boys were.  Scotty Moore really helped pioneer the sound soon to be known as "Rockabilly".  And yet how many people know his name today?
B.  The songs themselves.  Interpretations of already great blues and R & B tunes written by black artists.

I like Elvis' voice but he sure as hell ain't no Muddy Waters or Joe Turner.

And as far as the Rock & Roll argument?  Early Rock & Roll was nothing more than R & B with a different name, and R & B was around for years while Bill Haley was playing Country & Western.  Are you kidding?  Can anyone say Louis Jordan?  Half of Haley's hits were COVERS of Jordan tunes (or modeled after them).   I like the Comets, but Rock Around the Clock is not acknowledged as the first Rock & Roll single.  Jackie Brenston's 1951 recording Rocket 88 gets that honor.

On a side note - I don't like the argument that Jazz, Blues or R & R is "black music" (particularly since I'm a WHITE musician who plays these styles).  I think a lot of elements came together to form these genres, but let's face it - the true genius' and originators of these styes were black artists.  That's a fact.

Sinatra and Elvis were good for sure.  But genius'?  Nope, sorry.  Comes up a few dimes short for me.